Pere Casals:
Originally Posted by Drew Wiley
The links you provide do not answer the given question specifically.

Drew, I know some people that dealed with that particular company.

Originally Posted by Drew Wiley
he spoke no English, except for, "Sinar?" while giving me a thumbs up.

Their headquaters in the USA are in NJ, Midwest office is in CO, and Westcoast office is in Milpitas, CA
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/about-us/contact-us

在中国，优秀的光学公司，真的有很多......

Drew Wiley:
Pere - the same companies like the huge one in Xian, China that I just described are capable of making many different levels of quality. The links you provide do not answer the given question specifically. And when I state that I'd want to do some homework before dropping money on a lens, it doesn't mean a few minutes of web surfing. As far as China embracing LF, it's been there all along. Among the international tourists I encounter both in this area on the coast and inland, the Chinese are the most likely to be familiar with the specific equipment they see me using. Some of them are very wealthy; and they are in this game, they're probably not buying Chinese gear themselves. I ran into one earlier this year in a parking lot at Pt Reyes. Unlike most, he spoke no English, except for, "Sinar?" while giving me a thumbs up.

Drew Wiley朋友说的中国人不买中国货的这个现象，在中国确实存在，原因大致有2个，一个是目前中国货（至少是大部分的）还没有做得最好，另一个是中国人普遍崇洋。但是，我们不得不承认，中国造已经逐渐越做越好了，中国人使用中国产品，已经越来越普遍了。就像LF领域，现在中国的Chamonix、Shenhao相机，不光在中国以外，拥有大量的用户，在中国，它们的用户，体量更大，这就很好地说明，中国人还是很喜欢好的中国货的。同样，我们冈仁波齐 KangRinpoche 1:11.5/600 S镜头，也越来越受到欢迎。

Pere Casals:
Originally Posted by Drew Wiley
employs over 30,000 people, and makes of the world's student-grade microscopes, amateur telescopes, survey optics, etc,

Drew, take a look, please:

https://www.shanghai-optics.com/desi...e-engineering/
(https://web.archive.org/web/20180426...e-engineering/)

They have an Optotech machine for Asph. : https://www.shanghai-optics.com/comp...aspheric-lens/

Other reading:
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/design/
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/components/
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/assembly/

hmmm, these are not microscopes for kids... https://www.shanghai-optics.com/asse...pe-objectives/

https://www.shanghai-optics.com/asse...00x-objective/

https://www.shanghai-optics.com/abou...e-engineering/

毫无疑问，现在的中国，是世界的加工厂，只要你需要的，在中国的产品目录中，都能够找到相应的产品。

Randy Moe:
Originally Posted by Corran
Regarding LF in China - this came across my feed recently, from a friend in HK (no Facebook needed to view):
https://www.facebook.com/icablenews/...02961587250726

Yes, I reluctantly visit FB occasionally as we are often trapped or have no choice, especially if the link is not obviously FB. I still demure.

However, it does happen that some links give us good data.

The ULF lens seems to be pinhole and the well done news video shows the history of camera obscura visually. Audio is native.

I also notice the photographer and newswoman are both wearing the latest plastic eyeglass frames that many USA news people wear.

All it takes is a bit more news exposure and China may embrace LF and buy it all.

谢谢。

冈仁波齐也做了大量的针孔附件，而且价格很便宜。

Drew Wiley:
Not so fast. I've admittedly never seen one of these lenses. But time and again, I've been involved in situations where the Chinese precisely cloned the look of something relatively expensive, right down to illegally pirated brand and patent stamping, and the product turned out to be utter junk - looked very very good, but fell apart quickly. It's the ten buck Rolex watch story. I'm not saying that is automatically true this instance. But I sure wouldn't buy something like this without doing serious homework first. Fourn element lenses are the easiest to make. Bromwell and others imported four-element replacements for Commercial Ektars at reasonable pricing; but he told me in person that it was important to understand that these were decent "general purpose lenses", and not necessarily equivalent to the original for specialized applications. That kind of honesty is necessary. China has by far the biggest
optical manufacturing facilities in the world. A single plant not far from where the famous terra cotta warrior statues were uncovered employs over 30,000 people, and makes of the world's student-grade microscopes, amateur telescopes, survey optics, etc, and no doubt certain private-label lenses - usable products, but not top-tier. The relation to specialized glass types and exact coating can be a complex one. It not like a pancake recipe.

中国有句老话：林子大了，什么鸟都有。它的意思，就是一个国家一个社会一个行业，什么人都有，有好的，也有坏的。我从不否认中国没有坏产品，因为，在我的同行当中，就有人宣称，你出多少钱，我就给做你什么货，这是一个很不负责任的做法，很为冈仁波齐所不齿，因为冈仁波齐一直是做最好的产品，你是否购买，那是你自己的事，我们不会强求。

4片镜片的镜头，是否就是简单的镜头呢？那如果3片的Tessar镜头，岂不是更容易做？事实根本就不是这样，我在这里就不多说了，大家也不妨讨论讨论。

Pere Casals:
Steve, at least the coatings are different, it looks, the green reflections of the chinese sample suggests a multi-coating, but not the Fujinon EBC one.

They picked a design that's easy to replicate, 4 air spaced elements (I guess all spherical surfaces)... you send the sample elements to some chinese facility and you get exact copies of high quality made with high end machinery with ultimate performance... with 10% to 20% of the cost than if you do that in a western country... this is the way the world turns today.

If they could identify the specific Schott or Hoya glass references for each element... then just grinding they had it done.

我在前面回复过，镜片镀膜技术的初期，各个厂家都标榜自己的专利，比如FUJI的EBC，ZEISS的T*等，后来，镀膜技术普遍使用，就不会有人再在意那些曾经的专利了。

冈仁波齐 KangRinpoche 1:11.5/600 S镜头是多层镀膜的。还有，我们的镜头，不是一个简单的复制，我们镜头的光学结构，是独立设计的，与任何的厂家或型号，完全不一样，不存在拷贝别人的做法。

确实，中国各方面的发展，非常迅速，而且，通过先进的技术手段，成本也相应降低，市场价也就降低了，这个，对广大消费者来说，是很受欢迎的事。

Steve Goklsein
THE BELOW IS PURE SPECULATION - I DON'T WANT TO START ANY RUMORS.

.......

We'd probably have no way to find out.

谢谢你参与讨论。

对你的提问，我说说我的几个观点：

第一，冈仁波齐从一开始，就立志于做一个百年的优质品牌，而不是短视的商业行为；

第二，众多的优质产品，将提升单一品牌的美誉度；

第三，我们相信自己比别人做得更好；

第四，我们曾经与FUJI代理探讨过，他们能否复产FUJI某些我们需要的镜头，得到的答复很肯定：“不行！”。

Pere Casals:
Originally Posted by Drew Wiley
Who knows if it's qualitatively equivalent to a Fuji C or not?

Drew, still we don't know, first reports point it's a fine lens, we'll see...

But also let me add that today China has many high end lens manufacturing plants, rather than mass production we speak about massive mass production...

An example is a company named Lens Technology, founded by Zhou Qunfei (Hunan) only 12 years ago, the world's richest woman whose fortune is self made as stated by Forbes, 80,000 employees, selling $11 billion yearly.

In such an efficient industrial environment grinding the 4 elements of a C is a joke.

Then we have the fact that today's manufacturing tolerances are much narrower than when the C was discontinued.

So we'll see what Rinpoche is selling, but potentially it can be a fine product.

谢谢。我们的规模很小很小，只想实现自己的理想而已，没有想过赚很多很多的钱......

Peter De Smidt:
Perhaps our resident lens designer would think about making a comparable lens where the buyers supply their own shutters. The going prices might make a small run feasible.

谢谢参与讨论。

我们不需要在一开始，就生产很大的量，只要市场有需求，我们再加大产量，也是可以的。

Drew Wiley:
Who knows if it's qualitatively equivalent to a Fuji C or not? I have the real deal and wouldn't want to gamble on a knock-off. Sometimes ridiculous asking prices appear on the web auction site by certain dealers. People rarely actually pay those ridiculous sums.

冈仁波齐有一个不成文的规定，就是“比别人差的东西，就没必要推出了”，所以，面市的产品，都是经得起考验的。

我们无意贬损其他品牌，现在通过计算机进行光学系统的设计，真是又快又好，严格按照这个设计做出来的产品，一定优胜于几十年前的老产品。

Pfsor:
Indeed.

谁也不想失败。有了大家的帮助，我们才能成功。谢谢。

MAubrey:
Originally Posted by Pfsor
I hope they will have the idea to make the 450C variant. I have the Fujinon 600C - one of my most used lenses.

That would be very appealing. And Copal #1's are in far more abundance, too.

我们希望得到更多朋友的意见和建议。谢谢。

Pfsor:
Originally Posted by MAubrey
Well, I'm certainly going to keep an eye on this. I don't very much enjoy lugging out my Ronar 600mm and packard shutter and this is definitely viable alternative at a good price.

I have a spare copal 3 lying around, too.

I hope they will have the idea to make the 450C variant. I have the Fujinon 600C - one of my most used lenses.

多谢你的意见，我们也在为下一个镜头焦距做分析研判。

Pere Casals:
Originally Posted by Pfsor
their interest will quickly turn to the new digital stuff

In this case it's the counter, they come from making money from accessories for digital cameras:

冈仁波齐在2003年，就做出了云台及相关产品。2004年，HORSEMAN厂家的一个工程师，在把玩过这个云台后，感慨地说：能做出这样的好东西，做其他都不会有困难了。

实际上，2003年，我们就想生产与linhof同级别的产品了，考虑到受众的关系，最后才暂停了研发。

冈仁波齐云台的品质，经过长达15年的时间检验，得到非常好的评价，而我们的研发能力与生产能力，也使我们的产品，走在行业的前缘，这些都是有目共睹的。

冈仁波齐是2个方向的产品同步进行，一个是云台及相关产品，一个是LF的产品。

MAubrey:
Well, I'm certainly going to keep an eye on this. I don't very much enjoy lugging out my Ronar 600mm and packard shutter and this is definitely viable alternative at a good price.

I have a spare copal 3 lying around, too.

我们有足够的信心，冈仁波齐 KangRinpoche 1:11.5/600 S镜头不会让你失望。

Pfsor:
Originally Posted by Pere Casals
In phones, see Antutu benchmark, now best scores are for chinese brands...

but who else makes now C 600 glass ? also see the ShenHao offer... I've you can find chinese forums you will see that there is an internal demand, and strongs local societies.

Just don't let yourself be fooled by the demand too much. As soon as they will have more money in their hands their interest will quickly turn to the new digital stuff, as everywhere else. So far they must be looking for the cheaper alternative... Doesn't the phone craze tell you something?

是的，现在是数码时代，我们难以想象，明天又会有什么样的数码产品出现。

早几年，与一个朋友讨论LF厂家的成败，得出一个结论，失败的品牌，就是跟随了数码的步伐，生产了与数码配套的产品，而成功的厂家，无视数码时代，坚持传统。

Pere Casals:
In phones, see Antutu benchmark, now best scores are for chinese brands...

but who else makes now C 600 glass ? also see the ShenHao offer... I've you can find chinese forums you will see that there is an internal demand, and strongs local societies.

我们不能苛求一个厂家，既生产相机又生产镜头。我们知道，linhof、SINAR等相机品牌，它们的镜头，都是别人OEM的。

别人能做的，我们不一定跟随也去做，别人不做的，我们就不能做？

在中国，生产摄影器材的厂家，大致有两种人当决策者，一种本来是摄影师，一种是商人。前者对摄影器材有深刻的了解，懂得摄影人的需要，后者是市场需要什么，他们就生产什么。

冈仁波齐生产大画幅的附件超过10年了，产品有帐篷式暗袋、毛玻璃、增亮屏、冠布、片盒包、防X光袋、相机包、取景器、镜头扳手、快门按钮等，基本涵盖了大画幅摄影所需要的附件。2012年，我们推出了大画幅相机，在首发的当月，就订购了100多台。2015年，我们再推出了4X5手持快拍相机，现在，我们又推出独立知识产权的冈仁波齐 KangRinpoche 1:11.5/600 S镜头，这些，很能说明我们的理想与能力。

Corran:
Regarding LF in China - this came across my feed recently, from a friend in HK (no Facebook needed to view):
https://www.facebook.com/icablenews/...02961587250726

很抱歉，我看不到facebook。

Pfsor:
Growth you say. In phone cameras surely. In the hand of everybody and growing...

喔，如果大画幅也有这个增幅，那是值得庆贺的。

Pere Casals:
Pfsor, we don't know it...

IMHO we are not well aware about LF activity in China, many forums cannot be even reached, and google translate from chinese it's hard to understand... but I'd say that LF has a significative growth there, and poulation is 1400 million people there...

是的，中国庞大的人口基数，大画幅的用户，也有相当大的数量。

中国民间的大画幅年会，10天后将要举行了。从2007年开始，今年是第12届了。除第1第3届没有参加外，其余我都参加了。每次参加年会的朋友，都保持在200-300人之间。去年我发现一个很有趣的现象，就是有一些地方组织的代表也来了。在以前，大画幅玩家几乎是以个体形式出现的，现在出现了组织，说明那个地方，大画幅的使用者，是有一定数量的，而且，更重要的是，他们通过开展一系列的活动，聚集了人气，活跃了气氛，宣传了组织，提高了水平。

中国摄影网络里，大画幅论坛最活跃的，就是无忌这里。我想，外国朋友上无忌应该是比较方便的，因为很多在外国的※※，都可以随时参与我们的讨论。至于说翻译，我的英文水平也很差，也是通过翻译网络看你们讨论的。

Pfsor:
In fact, thinking of it, I suspect that some firm produces the lens as a side dish to their normal production (industrial lenses for ex.) And they hope, the numbers will pay in the end. But how many can they sell without the shutter and how many will sell with a scavenged shutter I would not like to predict. Most probably we will not see a second run of these...

虽然这是一个权宜之计，我们也不妨尝试一下。与其由我们去收集快门，不如大家为镜头去配套。

我们留下快门的空间，“裸镜”的价格，可以参考我们在淘宝“冈仁波齐官方自营店”的指导价。

Pfsor:
Pere, if they found a viable way of producing the extinct Fujinon 600C, then there would be hope, that with the same business model they can produce whatever else falls into the extinction pit. But something tells me, they don't have the secret yet. There must be another reason why they think it can be viable. Only future will tell us, that's for sure.

很不幸，这是一个疯子的行为。

我们也是LF的用户，我自己的相机，就有45、810、1114。在810中，我外出所带的镜头，分别是schneider 150 xl、rodenstock apo 240s、nikon 450/9和nikon 600/800/1200，一共6个焦距。但是，我在使用1114时，nikon 600/800/1200就不能使用了，所以才产生了自己生产600镜头的想法，希望这个镜头也能使用在更大画幅的相机上（我们有可能使用更大尺寸的相机）。

无需隐瞒，我们是借鉴参考了FUJI 600 C镜头的。但是，冈仁波齐 KangRinpoche 1:11.5/600 S镜头的光学结构与FUJI 600C完全不一样，那是我们独立设计的，有自己的知识产权，而不是简单的拷贝。

很幸运，我们镜头达到了我们的设计要求。

Pere Casals:
Pfsor, I would never said that I would see a chinese copy (perhaps good) of the Fujinon C 600, would you ?

It's hard to predict future, in theory film photography should be extinct by now, but there is a 7% yearly growth. The Arri Alexa camera had to be "the last nail in the coffin of film cinematography" 9 years ago, but (2019) Star Wars IX is being shot with film... and the Alexa may make the pre-shots to prepare for the real Kodak Vision 3 shootings.

Vynil records had to disapear decades ago, but see UK sales, for example:

ynil new LP sells reached 16 million units and $395 million in revenue last year...

So... who knows ?

At the end IMHO there is a need for new shutters, if someone finds the way to make a cost effective product in small scale production conditions...

谢谢i提供的有益的参考信息。

中国以外的大画幅市场，我了解不多，但中国大画幅市场，我还是了解一些的。

在很多场合，我都曾经说过这样的话：中国大画幅摄影，比外国晚了20年。换句话说，20年前，外国的大画幅玩的热火朝天，现在就轮到我们热火朝天了，情况大致也如此，包括后期暗房什么的。

再过10天，一年一度的大画幅年会，就要举办了，我想，这个民间组织活动，外国未必能搞得起来吧。

Pfsor:
Originally Posted by Dan Fromm
On the one hand, making lens cells or lens cells mounted in barrels for LF cameras doesn't seem to have good long term prospects. On the other hand, there are quite a few lenses in shutters and some of us have been scavenging shutters from them for years. Probably can't go on forever, but neither will we.

Dan, that doesn't solve the intrigue. What you can do with a good reason as an individual amateur, you cannot do as a viable business firm. I would love to know what are the production numbers for this lens. The quality seems to be there but who can afford the production of a few dozens of them? And who can make them in thousands without the proper shutter? Something simply doesn't add up

我小时候去照相馆拍照，那些摄影师傅手捏一个气球，藏在红布后面，嘴里喊一句，“眼睛看我这里”，照片就拍完了。那些摄影师傅捏的气球，原来就是气动快门的气泵。长大了，有幸学习摄影，老师告诉我，摄影师傅手捏的这个气动快门，最快速度是1/8s。因为这个手捏的时间不好掌握，当摄影师，必须从学徒开始，几年后才能“满师”。

大画幅镜头，除了现在我们常见的快门以外，原来还有各种各样的快门，也有没有快门的。好多老镜头，都是没有快门的，只有一个个不同孔径的插入式挡板。我不是为我们自己辩护，在生产冈仁波齐 KangRinpoche 1:11.5/600 S镜头时，我们设想了几个销售方式，一个是带快门的，一个是不带快门的“裸镜”，再一个是给前后组配套一个镜头筒，中间带光圈插片的。现在最后一个，也就是镜头筒我们还在开发中，但可以明确的是，我们一定会把镜头筒做出来的。

Dan Fromm:
Originally Posted by Pfsor
But as I said, much more intriguing is to make lenses without shutters when they need one. Do they really think people will buy another lens with a Copal 3 to scavenge it in order to buy a lens they want to have? That way of doing business is most intriguing to me!

On the one hand, making lens cells or lens cells mounted in barrels for LF cameras doesn't seem to have good long term prospects. On the other hand, there are quite a few lenses in shutters and some of us have been scavenging shutters from them for years. Probably can't go on forever, but neither will we.

我们也期待革命性的快门出现.......

Pfsor:
Originally Posted by Pere Casals
Nice shutters!

In fact it can be done with a NEC555 a transistor and some passive componets, but today a microcontroller is cheaper to use...

I have no doubt it can be done. If NASA needed it, it would be there with no problem. In the real world, however, where even en official (Copal) manufacturer leaves the field, what chances are that there will be another one who will miniaturize shutters, making them electronic ones for industry that is on the way out? It's nice to dream but look at the reality and see that all paraphernalia for LF photography are beasts in danger of extinction. That puts a different light on it, doesn't it? The Norwegian wood is good but so far there are new lenses without shutters - and even that is a phenomenon out of this world.

如你所说，以一国之力做一件东西不难，以一人之力，就难上加难了。就像现在讨论的快门，我们设想一下，即使做出来后，使用的数量会有多少呢？

早几年，我们看到了LOMO复刻的petzval，也是没有快门的。

Pere Casals:
Originally Posted by Dan Fromm
Funny, Compur did it.

See, e.g., https://web.archive.org/web/20181203...D=222563769934 for #1 and https://web.archive.org/web/20181203...mpur-3-shutter for #3.

You may have been thinking of Ilex/Melles Griot, Rollei or Schneider electronic shutters.
Nice shutters!

In fact it can be done with a NE555 a transistor and some passive componets, but today a microcontroller is cheaper to use...

确实，快门的单子化，是大势所趋......

Pfsor:
Originally Posted by Dan Fromm
Funny, Compur did it.

See, e.g., https://web.archive.org/web/20181203...D=222563769934 for #1 and https://web.archive.org/web/20181203...mpur-3-shutter for #3.

You may have been thinking of Ilex/Melles Griot, Rollei or Schneider electronic shutters.
While you're right I was thinking of Rollei etc. el. shutters still the battery compartment doesn't seem to be - very small. That piece of cake has yet to be baked, I'm afraid. But as I said, much more intriguing is to make lenses without shutters when they need one. Do they really think people will buy another lens with a Copal 3 to scavenge it in order to buy a lens they want to have? That way of doing business is most intriguing to me!

多年前，无忌也曾讨论过大画幅镜头的生产，当时大家对“裸镜”还是比较认同的/forum-viewthread-tid-978095-extra-page%3D1-ordertype-2-t-1536976583.html。

快门的确是冈仁波齐 KangRinpoche 1:11.5/600 S镜头销售的一个瓶颈，但是，现在朋友们手头富余的镜头（快门）可以充分利用，也算是销售方式的一个补充，虽然这个是暂时的。

Pfsor:
Originally Posted by consummate_fritterer
Speed control could easily be on the shutter via small push buttons and alpha-numeric display. There's no need for a lever. Ease-of-use could be enhanced by a wired or wireless remote. The aperture could be controlled similarly. ...

It could. If the Norwegian wood...

任何一个论坛的讨论，谈着谈着就会歪楼，现在大家讨论起快门了.....

consummate-fritterer：
Speed control could easily be on the shutter via small push buttons and alpha-numeric display. There's no need for a lever. Ease-of-use could be enhanced by a wired or wireless remote. The aperture could be controlled similarly. No matter what they do, if they do produce shutters, I'd plead with them to make nice ROUND apertures with many curved blades.

欢迎consummate-fritterer朋友参与讨论。

你的意见很好，我非常认同，而且认为，一个很有创意的想法，多谢你。

现在中国有许多带光圈的接环，它们的叶片有许多，光圈也做得很圆，不过，从实用主义出发，大画幅镜头像场足够大的话，使用很圆的光圈，是否有这个必要？