又在不知所谓了。 JVC？ SONY都 8K-120fps了（还是：16Bit下）。

我来问你， JVC才多少？

JVC弄了个 4K机：KY-F4000 。 用的是NHK技术研究所开发的 4/3英寸的：3,840 x 2,160（800万像素）CMOS。

但区区 3,840 x 2,160 的 800万像素， 这个KY-F4000 的处理能力只能最高处理：60p的信号。 而且只能实现：10bit下的 60p。

http://www.jvc.co.jp/pro/video/ky-f4000/spec.html

而SONY的 F65， CMOS是 8,768 x 2,324的 2,037万像素，处理能力是全像素下，16Bit 实现：120fps！！！

以数据处理量来说，是 JVC的KY-F4000 的超过 16倍！！！  

二者相比根本不在同一水平线上（起点差了十万八千里。 基本就是“利比亚”和“美国”的差距哈）。

做对比，麻烦找个同级的对手。

[张友学 编辑于 2011-07-12 21:42]

有客户上门了，小二，接客

兄弟你好
我需要一部F3，主要是旅行记录使用。。。

请帮我配置一下，谢谢，

我就是在色和尚的忽悠下，转而忽悠我们老板购入F3的，哈哈，原来中国这么小。
不过我还得客观地说，如果F3的处理芯片能升级或直接采用JVC芯片，画质的提升那不是一小点，CMOS帧频输出率将轻松达到120P/秒，就能将CMOS运动画面的缺陷降到最低。
否则，就目前SONY这CMOS技术，在较大型商业拍摄领域内，只要是拍摄高速运动的画面，都是有致命缺陷，我始终把它认定为不成熟的试验品，没啥可夸耀的，十几万的价格，嘿嘿，就是个坑钱的主

这个测试就 PMW-F3本体的机器来说，的确没什么不妥。 SONY官方公布的 F3以自带的 XDCAM-EX 8Bit 4:2:0@35Mbps码流录制的时候，动态范围大约在 600%（也就是9--10档）。而这个测试竟然测出了：11.2档。 说明SONY的指标还保守了些，实际上还高点。

但由于测试是早在 NAB 2011之前开始的，所以当时根本没有 CBK-RGB01的 RGB 4:4:4的 10Bit S-Log@ 440Mbps的输出附件（这个附件SONY单卖：$3,500美圆）。2011年 5月份开始供货的。

所以测试时，并没有给 PMW-F3加任何外部记录系统，只是以 PMW-F3自身的 8Bit 4:2:0@35Mbps的信号来记录的。 这个测试并不能代表 PMW-F3真正的性能，尤其是动态宽容度。

白痴都知道，8Bit的4:2:0的信号怎么可能获得传感器原始的动态范围呢！

加CBK-RGB01的 RGB 4:4:4的 10Bit S-Log@ 440Mbps的附件后，以外部记录仪记录。 PMW-F3的宽容度超过 RED-MX 和 F35是没有问题滴！

这是此测试时，沿用的 F3的信号规格，没有加任何外部记录器（当然那时候想加 RGB 4:4:4也加不成， SONY还没有提供固件升级）。

所以这个测试下的 PMW-F3，也就是能让你这种缺乏起码思维意识的小白乐呵，乐呵。至少测试中完全忽略了 PMW-F3极其强大的扩展性！

类似像 DRC的陈华（也就是网名：色和尚的那位），订购 F3，都是随CBK-RGB01 10Bit RGB S-log的固件一起订购。人家看中的就是 PMW-F3在 S-Log模式下，出色的动态宽容度和无与伦比的低光性能。没有 S-Log RGB 444的辅助， PMW-F3的性能，充其量能发挥个6成。

[张友学 编辑于 2011-07-12 21:00]

继续围观~~

这个评测比较客观公正，SONY F3尽管采用了新开发大像素CMOS，低照度表现不俗之外，其它没啥优胜的地方，如果能升级或采用JVC处理芯片，原机不加附件就能直接录制4：2：2的格式了，画质也会上一个档次。一台EX1的心脏，再加片低像素CMOS，外加个忽优钱的双链路SDI，价格就卖到十万以上，这就是市场竞争不充分而让消费者多掏腰包的结果。

这个测试我早在： ProVideo的专题报道中看过了。 测试时间是在 NAB 2011之前，测试片段在 NAB 2011上巡展。

测试时， PMW-F3的 S-Log RGB附件：CBK-RGB01还没有发布， 所以 PMW-F3根本没法打开 S-Log。 只是附带的 XDCAM-EX记录。

原文评测在这里：

最终的总结是：此次测试并没有给出最终结论，但测试小组私下里给出的结论是：综合画质水平， Alexa拔得头筹。 SONY F35紧随其后。

Alexa比较平均，宽容度最好。 F35则在清晰度、图象干净和色彩方面胜出！

至于 F3，即便以本身的 XDCAM-EX记录，依然在低光性能方面胜出

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/shullfish/story/single_chip_camera_evaluation/P0/

Tuesday, April 12, 2011
Filed under: GentryMedia Sister Sites •HDSLR •ProPhoto Coalition •ProVideo Coalition •NAB 2011 •Production •

Single Chip Camera Evaluation
Steve Hullfish | 04/12
The Big Chip Camera Shootout!



At the request of Zacuto in Chicago, Bob Primes, ASC led a group of over 100 intrepid volunteers and ASC colleagues in the creation of The Single Chip Camera Evaluation. Basically, a well-planned and fairly comprehensive shootout between the Arri Alexa, Sony F35, RED MX, Phantom Flex, WeissCam, Sony F3, Panny AF100. Canon 5D, 1D, 7D, Nikon D7000 and Kodak 5213 film.

The following write-up is my assessment of the presentation of the event. As the organizers point out, many of the results are subjective and there was no clear “winner,” though several of the panelists expressed a pretty un-restrained love for the clarity, beauty and simplicity of the Alexa, closely followed for their adoration of the F35.

To start the event – held at the end of the day Tuesday at NAB to a packed, standing room only auditorium of appreciative attendees – they showed the video of the tests themselves. The organizers hope to soon release a Bluray DVD of the video. For more on the availability and more specific results of the tests, please visit thescce.org.

Here are my quick notes on the video itself:

They broke the testing down to several specific categories including: Sharpness, low light capability, exposure latitude, highlight detail, shadow detail, color reproduction, skin reproduction, shutter artifacts.

In the sharpness test, they were looking at fine detail and contrast. They used a Siemens star chart. In the sharpness test, the RED ONE and film were tops, while the 1D, 5D, 7D and Nikon were among the worst. The results were displayed as a graph.

As for the Comparative sharpness test, the image was blown up about 230% to determine how sharp the image was. Obviously, cameras with a larger size – like the 4K Red image faired a lot better being blown up. The results, however, were subjective and open to interpretation. Someone may disagree with me on my impressions. Many high level DPs were in the audience and I walked out of the event with Art Adams and Adam Wilt. Hopefully they will post their impressions of the test as well. With that caveat, I thought that, F35, Alexa, RED, film, and Phantom were good. While the Panny 100 and the slew of DSLRs were the worst.

Throughout the test, there were several times that the audience broke into knowing laughter or at least audible recognition of the fault of a specific camera. The softness of the 5D in this test was the first place that this communal realization happened.

Let me just point out that of ALL the cameras tested, the only one I personally OWN is the 5D, so please don’t feel I’m slamming the DSLRs due to some elitist bias. I WANT the 5D to be come out ahead! But I’m realistic and trying to be objective.

In the low light Sensitivity test, they wanted to see which images could resolve an image in the lowest possible light – apart from the base noise floor. This was about the only category in the entire slate of tests that the Canon 5D came out on top, objectively.

In the real world shooting test for low light, it was hard to see a difference. In these subjective, comparative tests, the D.P.s determined one “best” image to use as a comparison to go back and forth between the other cameras, kind of as a reference. They explained that choosing that reference was subjective, but, in some since, was representative of the best camera performance in that particular test. In the case of the “real world” low light test, they chose the Alexa as the reference. The 5D was at the bottom, subjectively, though there wasn’t a lot of time to judge nuances.

The Dynamic range test was an objective test based on how many stops of range could be seen. Film and Alexa were at the top. Actually, Alexa had the best latitude with film at something like 14 stopsand the Alexa beating it with something like 14.2 stops. The Red was also very good. The F3 and DSLRs also rated well.

In the Highlight detail real world test, they shot a scene with a bright window in the background. They exposed to blow out the window in the camera, then used color correction to bring back whatever they could using a Power Window. In this test, which was subjective,  the Phantom. Weisscam, F3, AF100, and all of the DSLRs were bad. Again, a knowing group chuckle went up at the 5D. The organizers wanted to point out that the Weisscam and one of the other RAW cameras had some problem where they were unable to use the RAW camera data and had to use the HD-SDI. Obviously that’s a BIG disadvantage to test a RAW camera with only the HD-SDI image, so those results should be viewed with a kind of an asterisk – like Barry Bonds’ batting record.

In the lowlight shadow detail the F3 was excellent. The RED MX was used as the reference image. Film was actually bad. As Robert Primes pointed out, film actually has phenomenal highlight detail, but isn’t actually that good in the shadow detail. This test proved that point. The F3 looked good, as did the AF100 good. The DSLRs also all looked good.

The Ringer chart – by DSC I believe – showed the color sharpness and moiré issues. This was subjective, but the F35 was used as the reference and was nearly perfect looking. The Weisscam was bad the F3 was nice, the Panny was nice,  the 5D was bad, the 1D was worse, the 7D was bad and the Nikon was decent.

I had a very difficult time trying to judge the color rendition test in the short time each image was on screen, but the F35 was the reference.

They also judged color by the importance of the reproduction of Skin Tones. The rendering of skin tones is very objective. Primes pointed out, “Ultimately there is no right or wrong, simply what you like.” So I’ll leave my analysis of the skin tones out.

Finally, one of the most interesting tests from a technological point of view – instead of an artistic viewpoint – was the Shutter artifacts tests to determine the results of rolling shutter problems.

Clairmont Camera designed a drum with vertical lines that spun rather quickly. The test went by very quickly, but CLEARLY revealed the winners and losers in this category. I missed some of them as I was trying to write and watch at the same time, but from my notes:  The F35 looked good, the Flex was good, Weiss was good, F3 was bad, Panny was bad,  5D and 7D were among the worst, with the 1D a little better than it’s Canon brethren, and the Nikon D7000 was arguably the worst of all.

The oher rolling shutter test was a wheel with lines at 45 degree angles that spun (like an airplane propeller). I may have missed some cameras, since I was trying to write and view the tests at the same time, but from my notes:  Red MX was bad, Flex was perfect,  Wessscam was perfect, film, of course was perfect, F3 was not good, AF100 was not good, 5D was arguably the worst, though similar to the 1D, 7D and Nikon.

The audience and a panelist of the DPs and post professionals who worked on the test, discussed the aspects of the testing.

From quick notes during the Q&A, here are some points:

With the sharpness test, with the cameras that provided 4K, the full 4k was used on the blow up to test focus. The 5D ended up the worst. Obviously a lot of that is the compression of the image. But the DPs also admit that there could have been poor focus, since it was done manually.

The post workflow tried to get all cameras into the new Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences new ACES color space so that the various cameras’ color differences would be minimized, bur they were unable to accomplish this in the deadline for the video to be completed, so they did some minimal color correction on some of the images to be able to easier compare them.

One finding of the group was that they didn’t find a real disparity in ISO from what the manufacturers claimed. With some of the cameras – like RED RAW – you choose the ISO in post, but the camera manufacturers ISO claims were quite accurate and the manufactures were pleased with the way their cameras were represented and set up for the tests.

One bone of contention in determining ISO is whether the rating for ISO should JUST be based on the 18% gray, or should you rate a camera as having a higher ISO if it is able to deliver greater headroom (in stops) ABOVE 18% gray?

Primes disagrees that “video” cameras should even have ISO ratings because the curve is not the same as with film, so the ways to expose film based on ISO and an EI (exposure index) rating from a light meter are very different than video. Primes thinks that a video camera should really be rated and have exposure determined based on waveform monitors.

The DPs in the test all agreed that this test should be used judiciously and carefully because in the real world, you have ONE camera, and they claimed that by just doing small tweaks you could make any one of the cameras look better, but the point of the test was to come up with a single base for all of the cameras to be judged against, which is a little unfair in the “real world” because normally you WOULD adjust various parameters to get the best performance from the camera.

Many of them were very impressed that “There’s a $1700 camera that’s competing quite well” with much, much more expensive cameras.

To this end, “What’s the bang for the buck, for the money?” Some comments from the panel were: “I was very impressed with the F3.” “Some cameras are better in a highlight, some are better in the low-lights.” “Different horses for different courses.”

“Alexa has qualities of its own that no one can touch. But the F35 is so clean and sharp.”

The conclusions drawn throughout are often my own subjective and fairly unlearned observations. I hope you will explore the website for the test: http://www.thescce.org and consider picking up the Bluray disk of the test when it becomes available to have a look for yourself.

[张友学 编辑于 2011-07-12 17:13]

不要争了 ，经大量美国摄影师测试宽容度和画质最好的数码摄影机是德国佬的阿丽莎，至于sony F3，那高光一片死白，还不如7D，锐度不如佳能F305.
http://www.filmaker.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=9639&page=2#pid88923

哦，原来是这样啊。。果然是用F35大片的人，说话的口气果然不一样~~

还狡辩呢！ F3的色彩你硬要和 F35比，那没法比， F35之所以色彩出众到不是什么 RGB采样的CCD（欠、足采样率只决定清晰度、摩尔纹等因素，和色彩关系不大）。

色彩要看摄影机本身的色深度和色域空间。 F35包括新发布的 F65，它们都采用了特殊的S-Gamut超宽色域的“数字负片彩色空间”。所以从色彩覆盖范围来说，甚至超过了传统的彩色胶片负片。 这才是它们色彩强悍的根本原因。

最后面的就是 F35的色域覆盖范围图， 在最宽的S-Gamut超宽色域空间时，已经超过了彩色负片的色彩空间。

但对于 F3来说，SONY不可能赋予它和F35/F65等顶级机相同的 S-Gamut色域的机能（毕竟价格摆在那里），但 F3的色彩控制水平，要把什么普通的类似 F900R、HDW-790P、PMW-500（包括其它厂家的三片机）摆平，没什么问题。

DRC影像俱乐部的 F3、XF305、5DII等等机器的对比测试图很多人都看过了，我借花献佛一下。

Canon XF305，号称是手持三片式传感器产品之王。 它采用的是 RGB原始的三片式传感器对吧。

但别的就不说了，就对比图的色彩来说，单片的 F3，明显在色彩的准确性和直观观感方面，明显比三片式的 XF305要出色！所以实际上传感器是否是 RGB采样，并不决定什么色彩不色彩的。色彩主要看色域和色深度。

有图有真相（借用一下 DRC的图片）：

不合规外链图片,不直接显示，谨慎点击

不合规外链图片,不直接显示，谨慎点击

创作讲究的是意境和个人思维，这类片子不是商业片，基本都是拍给自己看的，甚至只有自己才能看得懂，这类片子用手机视频功能就能拍。

还没有万元以下的JVC和松下的小DV效果好，还搞个毛创作啊~~
您的逻辑真好~~

怎么又转到VG10上了啊~~

狗屁不通，还敢争论。

F35就不是“马塞克”了吗？ 请问F35的像素上是不是单色滤色片？

F35的CCD是怎么回事，你那脑袋肯定也想不明白。

F35的 CCD没错，的确是：RR、GG、BB的六个像素，形成一个完整的RGB逻辑像素，再进行采样后，输出传感器的颜色信息。

但哥啊， 现实当中（彩色胶片 或 三片式RGB传感器）的原始 RGB信息，是空间对位重叠在一起的，彩色胶片的RGB，是以：G、B、R的方式将三层感光染料上下重叠在一起，指向同一个空间位置。

三片式传感器也一样，每一片传感器上没有“彩色滤色片”，三片传感器收集到光线后，是通过分色棱镜，将光线分成RGB三种颜色，重叠于三维空间指向同一位置（和彩色胶片类似）。同理，X3传感器也是这样三维空间上下重叠的。

但F35是怎样的呢？它虽然完整实现了 RGB的采样，但它的RGB是处于同一个二维的水平空间的（是相互临近的，而不是相互重叠的落在一起）。所以严格意义上，它的像素还是单色滤色片的“马塞克”采样（只不过和我们广义上的“拜尔马塞克”有所区别）， 在输出颜色信息时，虽然不需要再估算RGB颜色信息了，但依然要通过运算进行RGB三色的空间对位（因为F35的 RGB颜色信息不是指向同一位置的）。

说到底， F35依然还是要进行反马塞克运算（解马塞克）。只不过相对来说，比普通的单片式传感器的产品，在运算量上要少得多，也简单得多。

[张友学 编辑于 2011-07-12 15:51]

刚有个哥们按捺不住，来电询问购入F3的配置：

1.经销商回答称目前只有带镜头套装的SONY F3K，没有单机F3L可供货。
2.F3K带三个镜头套装的机子，原机是不带电池和充电器的，需另购。
3.F3目前还没有一个原生卡口镜头，需随机附送的PL镜头座转接PL镜头，目前国内还没有单反镜头的转接环。

我给的推荐配置：
1.SONY F3K套机X1
2.国产BU95电池和充电器各一
3.ThinkPad  W520 笔记本 (RAID 0 1T硬盘）
4.EXPRESS CARD笔记本专用SDI采集卡X1
5.倍能BL-BP150 广播级摄像机索尼V口大电池两个，BLB-T1A 充电器X1
6.V口多功能电池挂板X1
7.250W直流逆变电源X1（外景时通过倍能BL-BP150电池给笔记本和摄像机机供电）

其中3-4两个加起来的价格与KI PRO MINI 4：2：2记录器价格相当，但笔记本直接采集更实用，既能编辑又能当监视器使用。

[无梦人 编辑于 2011-07-12 15:47]

杞人忧天，不要以为全中国只有你一个明白人。

VG10E又不是拍电影的。

现在在网络上能看到对SONY F3的评论，基本都是收费枪手写的，看来这些SONY枪手是有信心让接下来3年内，中国电影院线播放的电影会有大批采用F3拍的，F3的色彩还原不行，用过了才知道，没用过的就别再夸夸其谈，误导想要购入此设备的人，无论是SONY官网，还是那些枪手，都是只字不提F3的色彩还原，想想吧

当初SONY VG10E的那些枪手都去哪了，怎么不拿出几部成品商业电影来让大家看看！！

看来你连F35是三色RGB阵列的CCD都不知道，前期没有精确的色彩取样，后期就是输出5G的码流也没用，F3单片单色的只能通过芯片运算得出的RGB，这样的色彩能真实还原色彩吗？这也是F3和F35两个机子主要的价格差别的原因。当然，在实际运用中，影片成品并不需要真实的色彩还原。

F3这机子还是很适合创作类题材的拍摄，也很适合一些特别角度的场合中伙作为副机使用，轻便、机动，灵活是它的特点，至于画质，在某些场合拍的好不如拍得到。

听人劝吃饱饭，虚心一点吧，别硬扛了。

我还真没看过老张这篇文章，这是备份在手机里的常用数值，24P和50P是最常用的两个格式，弄反了很正常，我想用F35机子拍短片的人大多是采用这数值。

我们现在拍短片如广告类会采用这种安全数值，拍长片如电影和电视剧都是现场调用之前设好的伽玛值，力求在前期一次完成所需的色彩效果，后期基本不再调色，这对商业化的运作提高了效率，特别是电视剧，但对前期的监视器有很高要求。

很显然，你这个就是摘抄人家张艺谋拍摄《三枪》时的设置数据。我估计你下载过《三枪数字实践》这篇PDF介绍哈。

哎......还有，为了故意搞点区别，你硬是把人家老张头拍《三枪》时的：

扫描格式：24P
记录格式：24P（与F35设置相同）
图像质量（码率）：SQ（440Mbps）

故意改成了：

扫描格式：50P
记录格式：50P（与F35设置相同）
图像质量（码率）：SQ（440Mbps）

可你明显压根不懂 SONY的 S-Log是怎么回事。 这一改不要紧，错误马上出现了。老大你要改扫描模式为：50p，那相应的记录码率也必须变成：880Mbps啊，可你到好，记录码率还是照套人家“老张头”《三枪》时的数据，这摆明了自作聪明（实际笨得真够可以滴）！

告诉你吧， SONY的 HDCAM-SR采用的 SStP算法，压缩模式有两种，一种是标准的 SR算法，这时候， 24fps记录时才是：440Mbps；而50p时是以：880Mbps记录的。

只有：SR-Lite的算法，才能在：50--60p时，也实现更高效的：440Mbps记录。 而 F35并没有开放：SR-Lite编码的算法。 这个：SR-Lite算法是专门为：PMW-F3准备的。

哎......

这是人家老张头的摄影师赵小丁在《三枪》拍摄时的 F35和SRW-1的设置参数。和你的比比，一模一样，连描述文字都丝毫不差（你既然要摘抄，干脆就按照人家的数据抄吧，可为了搞些数据上的差别，改了个牛头不对马嘴）！你说你笨不？？哈哈

不对，仰或者你就是“赵小丁”哈，那真是失敬、失敬啊！连这么大的“御用摄影师”都到咱们这屋脊论坛上来闲逛哈，真是太让偶意外加TM激动了！

F35设置
色域：S-Gamut（胶片广色域）
扫描格式：24P
色温：根据拍摄需求分别设置为TUNGSTEN（钨丝灯，3200K）或DAYLIGHT（室外，5600K）
时码：Record Run（记录时运行）
工作模式：Cine Mode（电影模式）
监视输出：VF1/VF2设置为S-Log（电影伽玛），MONITOR设置为ITU-R709（电视伽玛）
伽玛：S-Log（电影伽玛）
增益（灵敏度）：一般设置为0dB（ISO 450），需要高灵敏度时设置为+3dB（ISO 580）或+6dB（ISO 900）
取景器设置：2.4:1安全框
VF1/VF2（取景器1/取景器2）斑马纹设置：斑马纹1设置为38%电平，对应18%灰；斑马纹2设置为65%电平，对应90%白
快门角度：根据照明电源频率设置为172.8度（1/50秒）或180度（1/48秒）
动态范围：EXTEND（扩展模式）

其它设备设置

SRW-1
分体拍摄时与F35的连接方式：双链接
记录格式：24P（与F35设置相同）
取样格式：4:4:4
图像质量（码率）：SQ（440Mbps）

BVM-L230
输入：双链接 4:4:4
色域：S-Gamut（胶片广色域）
伽玛：S-Log Standard
安全框：2.4:1


[张友学 编辑于 2011-07-12 11:24]

这么晚了通篇看来还是你说的有道理!
继续关注!无忌什么牛人都有!


[ccccda 编辑于 2011-07-12 02:32]

深夜还能看到这样的讨论,不容易啊.这段时间深深的被f3吸引,格外关注这个机型,希望能够物有所值.

略微调整咖玛后，色彩已经很养眼了！

另外对于 PMW-F3的色彩，实际上默认的出厂设置下，是有些偏灰的黄。但实际上 F3内部的咖玛调整非常丰富，在本身的 XDCAM-EX @ 4:2:0的 35Mbps记录模式下，拉拉曲线就能调整出非常出众的色彩了。

默认色彩，偏灰，有点发黄。

活活，你东摘西抄的数据有误哈！

F35用 50p记录时，怎么会是 440Mbps码流呢？ 分明是 880Mbps码流哈。 F23/F35在使用SRW-1时，都是在 24p输出时，才是 440Mbps码流哈。

还有哈，我怎么看你这个数据，是张艺谋拍摄 《三枪》时的相同设置哈，不是那个摘抄的伐？

还有想问一下， F35拍摄 2.39:1的变形宽银幕时，是怎么设置的哈。 这时候解像度是多少哈？

这个真是想当然!

s-log明摆着将F3的动态宽容度指标从XDCAM-EX的 9--10档，提升到了13档左右。 这个意义就远远超过了任何其它因素。因为对于后期制作来说，记录格式的动态范围决定一切！没有足够的记录动态宽容度的丰富信息量。你做后期没有任何余地。

RGB是取样格式，和传感器有什么关系？

任何一枚单片式传感器，都必须经过解马塞克算法，还原成RGB信息。传感器出来的信息本身就已经包含了 RGB的色彩数据信息（不管是原始采样的，还是通过插值计算的）。

看来你真连基本概念都不明白。

[张友学 编辑于 2011-07-12 01:37]

F35是RGB的CCD，F3是单片单色的CMOS，哪来的RGB，用RGB4：4：4记录仪记录F3双链路信号，我想80%的文件信息都是没用的电脑杂讯，至少我个人认为，这种组合没有实际意义。